Water and other political issues.

Anything relating to politics whatsoever to be posted here specifically. You may start as many topics as you like.

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:38 am

In relation to a previous question I asked on here 'how many new solicitors are registered each year' ..........

I have found out that 1347 newbies registered with the Law Society in 2016 wuu wuu wuu

Its a great little country that can accommodate such year on year increases.
According to Myers-Briggs, I'm a "ENTJ-a"....
User avatar
Toss
Somewhere over the rainbow
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Location: A figment of your imagination

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Rocker » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:36 am

Well I ask myself "who wouldn't want to be a Solicitor" at that rate of going???.....Wonder if they take O.A.P's at the Law Library??...I'll give it a lash....their daily rate is my pension for two months!! and my food costs the same as theirs!!...not to mention my bin charges!!
I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.
William Allen White
User avatar
Rocker
Globetrotter
 
Posts: 6169
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:29 pm
Location: The Rock

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:53 am

Toss wrote: I could have been a millionaire given the number of accidents I blamed on myself



Priceless Toss. :lol: :lol:

One of the stupidest posts I see online is that we need an Election against all these gangsters in government, hahahahahhaha! :lol:
User avatar
Strum
Administrator
 
Posts: 9587
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:03 pm
Location: Sallysupermarket, Thomastown.

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:30 pm

Some might be interested in this.


KildareStreet.com is a non-partisan website which aims to make it easy for people to keep tabs on their elected representatives in the Houses of the Oireachtas.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/
User avatar
Strum
Administrator
 
Posts: 9587
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:03 pm
Location: Sallysupermarket, Thomastown.

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:40 pm

Soapbox column 23 July 2017. Gene Kerrigan.



When the establishment version clashes with what we know to be the truth.
For some time, humiliation has been part of the job description for members of the Irish establishment. The pay is still good, and you still get to wag your finger at the common herd, but the position has lost its moral swagger. Because they know that we all know what's going on. The remarkable thing is the extent to which the Irish establishment brought itself into disrepute.

It wasn't the lefties, the liberals or the feminists who undermined the Catholic Church or An Garda Siochana, it was all their own work.
And never has a politician been found out as quickly as the current Taoiseach. By his own behaviour.
Today, to accept the writ of the Irish establishment you must be seen to believe things that are widely known to be untrue. It's humiliating.
Back in the day, the establishment was impregnable. At local level, the priest, the banker, the doctor, the solicitor, the business owner and the TD operated as a loose coalition to oversee the riff-raff.
At national level, either Fianna Fail or Fine Gael topped the poll. Whichever it was, they governed in an unofficial coalition with the Catholic hierarchy.
To question any of this was to be considered a crank - at best. Maybe even a subversive.
That old establishment was both socially and economically conservative. But from the late 1960s the social conservatism ebbed. In the old Ireland, men could legally rape their wives; contraception and divorce were not human rights but sins; and many an evening in a quiet corner of a public park the locals enjoyed a game of Kick-the-Queer-Unconscious.
Connecting with Europe meant improving education, an openness to ideas. Many of the savage aspects of old Ireland embarrassed the establishment in front of their new European friends.
While the social conservatism withered, within the EU the economic conservatism persisted - and hardened through the final decades of the 20th Century.
And it was during that period that the humiliation of the establishment began.
First, the captains of industry, the politicians, the hoteliers, the pub owners were revealed to be operating intricate tax-evasion schemes, with the aid of bankers, lawyers and accountants.
Later, the super-wealthy were revealed to be dodging tax using "loopholes" obligingly knitted into legislation following consultation with lobbyists.
We knew they were at it, and being let get away with it.
Inquiries of various sorts took place, but the overall impression was of an establishment that prospered by doing whatever it felt it needed to do, without consequences.
The Catholic Church might have had something to say about all this, but its authority had already collapsed. It still hasn't recovered from the revelation that the hierarchy protected its Church's reputation for decades by playing Hide-the-Pedophile.
Then the Guards ran out of fingers on which to count their own accumulating scandals. When it turned out they'd invented a million fictional breath tests we were partly shocked, but kind of admiring all the same. These guys don't do corruption by halves.
For many, it was regrettable that the establishment was morally deficient, but at least they'd given us the Celtic Tiger.
Then, the 2008 collapse revealed that the bankers literally didn't know how banking works.
The role of "regulators" seemed to be to ensure the bankers weren't troubled by regulations. Economists who pointed out the laws of economics were told by the Taoiseach that they ought to commit suicide, so most of them decided to agree that money grows on trees.
Thus the corruption spread, until official Irish statistics became a source of mirth internationally - and we'll long be mocked for our "leprechaun economics".
When the economy collapsed, the establishment worshipped at the Church of Austerity. This required the asset-stripping of the many; and, at the same time, a high tolerance of tax dodging by the few. Simultaneously, massive amounts of private debt were taken over by the State.
This led to an increasing left-wing presence in the Dail, but it's still quite small.
The economic conservatism that imprisons the mainstream parties makes them helpless in the face of homelessness and the health chaos. You cannot meet social needs if every initiative must be subject to the laws of the market.
As a result, we have people making fortunes from the property market and the health business, while the numbers of homeless multiply and the hospital waiting lists are declared to be "out of control".
Even as its credibility drained away, the establishment began to more loudly insist on its own infallibility.
Homelessness isn't the problem: what really matters is someone claiming the dole and doing the occasional nixer - that's the nut we have to crack.
To question the party line is to risk being driven into the wilderness.
If a conscientious banker, such as Jonathan Sugarman, popped up, he was easily isolated. Garda whistle-blowers were treated as pariahs by Fine Gael, the "law and order party".
It wasn't law or order that mattered, but loyalty. The whistle-blowers were, the party agreed, "disgusting". Black was white, good was bad.
When honourable gardai sought protection it was not from the ranks of FG or FF that they got it. And when a TD was arrested, handcuffed and her name falsely linked with drunk driving, the media cooperated with those who sought to discredit her. And did so even though all this happened shortly after that TD spoke in the Dail about the need to support the Gerda whistle-blowers.
It's now four years and five months since the media was used to blackguard Clare Daly. Even now, incredibly, the investigative dynamos of GSOC have yet to conclude their investigation into that scandal.
Again and again and again, we have an establishment humiliating itself even further by being unable - and/or unwilling - to confront the emerging reality of its own institutions.
We know what's going on, and they know we know.
It's now almost two weeks since the new Taoiseach spoke to the Dail about the Jobstown "false imprisonment" trial. Since he had previously spoken about this matter, in a planned interview, it's obvious that the Taoiseach knew what he was doing.
He told the Dail that his view of what happened at the Jobstown protest was formed by an incident - one that was mentioned in court (details of an alleged vote to hold Joan Burton captive overnight). The evidence he cited was, as he should have known, rejected by both the judge and the jury, as it was contradicted by a video of the incident.
This rejection, in parliament, by a Taoiseach of the findings of a trial judge and a conscientious jury is unprecedented.
One would expect such an event to provoke some controversy - is the Taoiseach right? Was the judge wrong? Was the jury incompetent?
No questions have been asked.
It's as though the political parties are pretending either the Taoiseach was right or this didn't happen. And the media shrugs.
We know this happened, the establishment knows we know. Are we supposed to pretend it didn't happen? Or are we supposed to adjust our views and accept as true that which we know to be false?
When the truth is widely known, yet the establishment chooses its own facts as the truth, we are truly vanishing down the rabbit hole into wonderland.
User avatar
Strum
Administrator
 
Posts: 9587
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:03 pm
Location: Sallysupermarket, Thomastown.

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:01 am

Thats well written Strum, but you know the point is lost on those that matter .... the electorate.

Silence is golden.
According to Myers-Briggs, I'm a "ENTJ-a"....
User avatar
Toss
Somewhere over the rainbow
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Location: A figment of your imagination

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Rocker » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:01 am

Oh I wish I could put things together like Gene Kerrigan!!I sometimes wonder where i am!!I have lived through all that, seen it all but, the problems of illness, sadness, everyday living have me like most people just plodding along from day to day having lost the will to look at the big picture.


Back in the day, the establishment was impregnable. At local level, the priest, the banker, the doctor, the solicitor, the business owner and the TD operated as a loose coalition to oversee the riff-raff.

I love that quote..being the riff raff

We know this happened, the establishment knows we know. Are we supposed to pretend it didn't happen? Or are we supposed to adjust our views and accept as true that which we know to be false?
When the truth is widely known, yet the establishment chooses its own facts as the truth, we are truly vanishing down the rabbit hole into wonderland.
scry scry
I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.
William Allen White
User avatar
Rocker
Globetrotter
 
Posts: 6169
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:29 pm
Location: The Rock

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Sinead » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:44 pm

Toss:

Delighted to see you back posting, I have missed you. Tried to send you an email
but you don't have that facility on this site. Sent you a PM but don't know if
they get through or not. Hope all is well with you.

Sinéad
User avatar
Sinead
Somewhere over the rainbow
 
Posts: 1904
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:09 pm
Location: Co.Dublin

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:59 pm

Sinead wrote:Toss: Tried to send you an email but you don't have that facility on this site. Sinéad


Hi Sinead, there is. If you look under any members profile pic you'll see a pm button and beside it an envelope, that's the email button. ;)
User avatar
Strum
Administrator
 
Posts: 9587
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:03 pm
Location: Sallysupermarket, Thomastown.

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:16 pm

User avatar
Strum
Administrator
 
Posts: 9587
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:03 pm
Location: Sallysupermarket, Thomastown.

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:48 pm



and why not ?

We have opened up our doors for all sorts to come in and rip us off thanks to our lack of strong leadership. Is there any industry left here that has not seen outside ownership and rip off prices thanks to our lack of forward planning. This week has seen Dublin Bus routes being sold off and spun as if it was a great achievement.... the truth is that Paddy can no longer organise and run a bus company because they are up to thier neck in favours to vested interests. If that were untrue, then the Gov would deal with the issue and face up to the problems as opposed to getting Johnnie Foreigner in to bail us out.

Embarrassing, but we get what we vote for and not enough sheeple challenge the status quo.
According to Myers-Briggs, I'm a "ENTJ-a"....
User avatar
Toss
Somewhere over the rainbow
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Location: A figment of your imagination

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:54 pm

.

I suppose we will be paying the London Bus Dublin operator if not enough people use their service ...... seen as we can lash out €28 million to help the poor motorway toll operators http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/toll-firms-paid-28m-to-compensate-for-lack-of-traffic-30506820.html

Shameless use of taxpayers money and as usual NO ONE is responsible for such wastefullness, heads in the sand time again :(
According to Myers-Briggs, I'm a "ENTJ-a"....
User avatar
Toss
Somewhere over the rainbow
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Location: A figment of your imagination

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:05 am

People like you in "politics" Toss? That's where my vote goes. Thing is though if you were elected, would you turn to the dark side on us with all that money and extras that go with the job? :mrgreen:
User avatar
Strum
Administrator
 
Posts: 9587
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:03 pm
Location: Sallysupermarket, Thomastown.

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:29 am

Strum wrote:People like you in "politics" Toss? That's where my vote goes. Thing is though if you were elected, would you turn to the dark side on us with all that money and extras that go with the job? :mrgreen:


:lol: :lol: :lol: rest assured I am far too old and savvy to think that I could change the monster that is our Government over the last decades ..... all they have to do is have their mates in the media talk up some doom and gloom headliner about job losses and the sheeple will run for cover.

As for turning to the dark side, there's not a chance they would let me .... I'd be their worst nightmare, I don't like rugby :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
According to Myers-Briggs, I'm a "ENTJ-a"....
User avatar
Toss
Somewhere over the rainbow
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Location: A figment of your imagination

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:23 pm

Toss wrote:As for turning to the dark side, there's not a chance they would let me .... I'd be their worst nightmare, I don't like rugby :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:



:lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
Strum
Administrator
 
Posts: 9587
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:03 pm
Location: Sallysupermarket, Thomastown.

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:26 pm

Fine Gael, being the sneaky f**kers that they are, have vested or bestowed all public water assets over to Irish Water PLC as of 21st July 2017 and not one politician has mentioned it. Not even the media.
This means that Irish Water now effectively owns the public water infrastructure. Lock stock and barrel.
This is the answer to the referendum you never got.



Image


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017 ... ade/en/pdf
User avatar
Strum
Administrator
 
Posts: 9587
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:03 pm
Location: Sallysupermarket, Thomastown.

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:26 pm

We're screwed.


Suspended, NOT scrapped. Make your headline more accurate Irish Times...

"Company documents filed this week for the utility show it received the cash in return for issuing a raft of new shares, which were then allocated evenly between the departments of finance and housing."

Now we have confirmation that Irish Water is an independent entity that the Government do not own. The Government owns shares in Irish Water instead.

And this is coming on the heels of the Government transferring all the public water assets over to this independent Irish Water DAC.

The subvention of €270 million is to keep them going until charges can eventually be brought back.

Make no mistake. This is the path they are on..

Why else would they pay Irish Water for shares, keep them afloat with cash that they just so happen to have in the middle of a housing and health crisis and then vest this company with public assets if they do not expect to have their "customers" pay eventually?



https://www.irishtimes.com/business/sta ... -1.3190049
User avatar
Strum
Administrator
 
Posts: 9587
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:03 pm
Location: Sallysupermarket, Thomastown.

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:21 pm

Strum wrote:We're screwed.


I really do wonder if the politicians are drunk on their own power .... after all, they have been getting away with all sorts for years.

The problem as I see it, is that there is a growing disaffected section of the public out there. They are a generation that has lost religion, lost self respect, have been brought up by television and sold entitlement thanks to the liberal hand-out approach of our social service. They see the Gardai as weak, the courts as a revolving door joke and the criminals around them as powerful rich heroes living it up by taking whatever they want.

Despite all the hype about 'new' Garda initiatives, gangland killings are now just an everyday event and the drugs culture thrives. Try telling some people that you grew up in a house with no hot water, no heating, no bath or shower and only an outside toilet ...... they will laugh and tell you it was 'your fault' for putting up with it.

I wonder do our politicians (who are playing hard and fast with Irish Water), think that the people will just roll over and pay up (law or no law) .... its a very dangerous duplicitous game they are playing.

Lessons are not being learned at the top .... the gap between the haves and have nots is getting wider with increased homelessness, poor health service, rising rents, water charges, education costs and privatisation. I suspect we are on the road to civil unrest and nobody is willing to call it .... look at America, look at England's UKIP brexiteers .... only a fool would think that everyone is happy here and that the Government have everything under control.
According to Myers-Briggs, I'm a "ENTJ-a"....
User avatar
Toss
Somewhere over the rainbow
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Location: A figment of your imagination

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:45 pm

The truth is out there and while I know the link below is a long read ...... it should compulsory reading for anyone with a vote (even if it too late).

“It has to do with the privatization of water and taking the people’s water and making a profit from it, an exorbitant profit, a ridiculous profit, when there are people with no water at all, or people with poisoned water,” she says. “We don’t believe water should be owned by anybody. It’s a public right.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-21/nestl-makes-billions-bottling-water-it-pays-nearly-nothing-for
According to Myers-Briggs, I'm a "ENTJ-a"....
User avatar
Toss
Somewhere over the rainbow
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Location: A figment of your imagination

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:59 pm

Toss wrote:The truth is out there and while I know the link below is a long read ...... it should compulsory reading for anyone with a vote (even if it too late).

“It has to do with the privatization of water and taking the people’s water and making a profit from it, an exorbitant profit, a ridiculous profit, when there are people with no water at all, or people with poisoned water,” she says. “We don’t believe water should be owned by anybody. It’s a public right.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-21/nestl-makes-billions-bottling-water-it-pays-nearly-nothing-for


Contributors,sensationalistic Trumpian perception of reported news is very unhelpful. As I previously predicted, hopefully as has been published, there will be a referendum to give an answer this question.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... -1.3227046

Read it through and form your own opinion.
zingerberi capillus et bene moratus.
User avatar
gingertom
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 340
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:30 pm
Location: with the wigs

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:27 am

gingertom wrote:Contributors,sensationalistic Trumpian perception of reported news is very unhelpful. As I previously predicted, hopefully as has been published, there will be a referendum to give an answer this question.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... -1.3227046

Read it through and form your own opinion.


Thats nice of them, but the fact remains .... how much is Diageo paying for our water ? how much is Britvic paying for ballygowan ? I am more than happy to pay a prorata charge compared to the major users rate. Its all very well highlighting legislation for the ordinary public, but what about legislation for corporate greed ? where is the referendum to stop that?

Also what is 'Trumpian perception' ?
According to Myers-Briggs, I'm a "ENTJ-a"....
User avatar
Toss
Somewhere over the rainbow
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Location: A figment of your imagination

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:33 pm

Toss wrote:
gingertom wrote:Contributors,sensationalistic Trumpian perception of reported news is very unhelpful. As I previously predicted, hopefully as has been published, there will be a referendum to give an answer this question.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... -1.3227046

Read it through and form your own opinion.


Thats nice of them, but the fact remains .... how much is Diageo paying for our water ? how much is Britvic paying for ballygowan ? I am more than happy to pay a prorata charge compared to the major users rate. Its all very well highlighting legislation for the ordinary public, but what about legislation for corporate greed ? where is the referendum to stop that?

Also what is 'Trumpian perception' ?


Obviously a perception akin to.... :roll:
zingerberi capillus et bene moratus.
User avatar
gingertom
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 340
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:30 pm
Location: with the wigs

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:17 am

gingertom wrote:
Toss wrote:
Also what is 'Trumpian perception' ?


Obviously a perception akin to.... :roll:



Trumpian refers to the bombast, egotism, and lies, or anti-establishment, authoritarian, bigoted ideologies that some associate with the language, conduct, and viewpoints of President Donald Trump.

I though we were avoiding playing the Trump card after the last issue we had with it. I wonder how many others have read posts on here and thought them to akin to trumpian perceptions ? or dare I ask for fear of what perceptions surrounds it.

Anyway, enough of the sidestepping my issue..... I'm still trying to find out how much the big industrial water users pay per litre for their water (especially those that sell it on for profit).
According to Myers-Briggs, I'm a "ENTJ-a"....
User avatar
Toss
Somewhere over the rainbow
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Location: A figment of your imagination

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:01 am

Toss wrote:
gingertom wrote:
Toss wrote:
Also what is 'Trumpian perception' ?


Obviously a perception akin to.... :roll:



Trumpian refers to the bombast, egotism, and lies, or anti-establishment, authoritarian, bigoted ideologies that some associate with the language, conduct, and viewpoints of President Donald Trump.

I though we were avoiding playing the Trump card after the last issue we had with it. I wonder how many others have read posts on here and thought them to akin to trumpian perceptions ? or dare I ask for fear of what perceptions surrounds it.

Anyway, enough of the sidestepping my issue..... I'm still trying to find out how much the big industrial water users pay per litre for their water (especially those that sell it on for profit).


You may well have done this but........Just a thought.......ever considered a freedom of information request to IW regarding corporations you wish to seek information about?

https://www.water.ie/about-us/freedom-of-information/
zingerberi capillus et bene moratus.
User avatar
gingertom
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 340
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:30 pm
Location: with the wigs

Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:38 pm

gingertom wrote: You may well have done this but........Just a thought.......ever considered a freedom of information request to IW regarding corporations you wish to seek information about? https://www.water.ie/about-us/freedom-of-information/


Tried, but was told that my request / question was too specific and I was redirected to the road to nowhere (ie Dublin City Council) :roll:

However I have learned a lot without digging too deep and turning an interest into an obsession. This gem of information struck a cord "Hard alcohol, it turns out, is the greediest, guzzling 34.55 litres of water for every litre produced" ..... its from http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2013/10/28/241419373/how-much-water-actually-goes-into-making-a-bottle-of-water

The Irish Whiskey Associations report http://www.abfi.ie/Sectors/ABFI/ABFI.nsf/vPagesSpirits/Home/$File/Vision+for+Irish+Whiskey+May+2015.pdf from 2015 shows how the industry is growing at a rapid rate In 2014, more than 6.7 million 9-litre cases of Irish whiskey were exported to over 100 countries around the world. This figure is set to exceed 12 million cases by 2020 ... so by the year 2020 we will be exporting 108 MILLION litres of whiskey per annum, now multiply that number by 34.55 to give you an idea of how much water is being used by whiskey producers. In that report, their only comment on water is :Water quality: Water from clean water courses is essential to the successful manufacture of Irish whiskey. Given that the industry turnover is almost €400million, it is interesting to note that the €35million spent on materials is its lowest cost and I can only wonder what percentage of that is actually water costs and what is grains, sugar, additives etc etc etc.

Now think about all the other drinks we produce here (soft drinks / beers/ water / gin / vodka / etc etc etc) and you get a clear idea that the drinks industry is easily outstripping domestic use (they are not alone, big pharma and others are also in on the act) and yet we are the ones under pressure pay up and to save Irish Water.

Industrial water use seems to be a taboo subject that gets hidden behind the old 'comercial sensitivities' chestnut, its about time we cracked that nut :P the truth will out.
According to Myers-Briggs, I'm a "ENTJ-a"....
User avatar
Toss
Somewhere over the rainbow
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:48 pm
Location: A figment of your imagination

PreviousNext

Return to Politics



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests