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Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:58 pm
by gingertom


Ridiculous....What about when the nappy needs changing? What if the child cries to object? If a child is treated with due respect and care well then I'm sure they learn to be empathetic. But when they reach the age to be handed a smartphone and have access to the web, thats when parents should be proactive in policing their internet usage and prohibit access to porn sites. This is a major problem in how younger people, because women are mostly portrayed as disposable objects in porn, may form negative views around sexuality in general. Maybe that would be a better way to combat sexual abuse.


My view on the referendum issue is simple. I am saddened that we have permitted abortion to be legislated for in our Republic. Remember it is very likely that there will be a no reason required to terminate up to the 12th week. Alternatively we could have legislated for fatal foetal abnormality events without dispensing with the right to life protection for a vulnerable voiceless foetus.
For example, how many fathers will be told that their unborn child has been terminated without their knowledge, now this protection has sadly been discarded. In the days before this referendum, I can refer to quite a few fathers, including married ones, to whom this happened. As a de minimis principle, everybody who is entitled to vote is entitled to an opinion on this and every other constitutional issue.....gender status does not disqualify from participation in public discourse.

Legislation was already there.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013 ... ed/en/html

The medical profession was fearful of section 22 as there was a criminal sanction for intentional destruction of human life. See below.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013 ... html#sec22

A simple amendment or deletion of this provision may have negated the need for a referendum at all.

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:04 pm
by Toss
.
Valid points GT and ones that mirror my view that this referendum could have been handled better. To my mind, the real winners here are the Government as the tax take from the rapid growth of private clinics will have them rubbing their hands with glee, while the HSE struggle to get the service up and running.

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:41 pm
by gingertom
Toss wrote:.
Valid points GT and ones that mirror my view that this referendum could have been handled better. To my mind, the real winners here are the Government as the tax take from the rapid growth of private clinics will have them rubbing their hands with glee, while the HSE struggle to get the service up and running.


Toss, remember the tax take will be minimal. Corporation tax is, when everything is taken into consideration, a single figure percentage entity. I contend that the real issue is that the state may empower private clinics to carry out these procedures and attempt to avoid responsibility (for malfeasance or any negligence) in cases of tragic circumstances. But crucially, I must highlight that in a similar fashion as to how Revenue is treated, such Clinics could be permitted to interpret legislation and implement what is known as 'delegated legislation' legally. Simply said, in the absence of clear legislation, a private corporate organisational interpretation could be allowed to permit any private entity to conjure a defence, to operate as they see fit.

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:51 pm
by Gerald
So, if the HSE is paying for abortions, whether it be supplementation for private clinics, or through the medical card, or public health, where do the funds come from? Will the government allocate additional funds for the HSE budget, and if so, why hasn't it been doing so in other areas of healthcare which are experiencing chronic under funding. If no more funds are allocated, presumably, other services will be curtailed, or even stopped entirely?

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:32 pm
by Strum
"zingerberi capillus et bene moratus"

Curious signature GT. Your ginger cat named Berry is well groomed?

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:34 pm
by gingertom
Gerald, the state may end up as ultimate payor for these procedures.

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:39 pm
by gingertom
Strum, just Strumming away my friend!

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:44 am
by Toss
gingertom wrote:Toss, remember the tax take will be minimal. Corporation tax is, when everything is taken into consideration, a single figure percentage entity. .


Its not just corporation tax though ...... all the clinics will needs staffing and premises as well as services and supplies. Its a complete entity that will feed a lot of money in the state... and as you say, that state will ultimately take the hit if or when things go wrong just like the breast scan fiasco.

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 1:25 am
by Strum
gingertom wrote:Strum, just Strumming away my friend!




Uh huh.

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:34 pm
by Toss
I see our daily killing was in bray this morning with one man dead and two others injured (inc Katie Taylors dad)..... it seems the road goes on forever and the killing never ends. :(

The regularity of the murders suggest that there is no fear out there. Its not as if this scenario has not been flagged many times https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/republic-of-ireland-is-deadliest-place-to-live-in-irish-and-british-isles-new-figures-34614775.html so it begs the question "have the authorities any desire to take serious action and stop the rot?" or are they simply happy to maintain a level of crime and murder that allows its associated industries continue to exist and profit from misery. One thing is certain .... throwing money at the problem will not solve it.

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:55 pm
by Gerald
Toss wrote:I see our daily killing was in bray this morning with one man dead and two others injured (inc Katie Taylors dad)..... it seems the road goes on forever and the killing never ends. :(

The regularity of the murders suggest that there is no fear out there. Its not as if this scenario has not been flagged many times https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/republic-of-ireland-is-deadliest-place-to-live-in-irish-and-british-isles-new-figures-34614775.html so it begs the question "have the authorities any desire to take serious action and stop the rot?" or are they simply happy to maintain a level of crime and murder that allows its associated industries continue to exist and profit from misery. One thing is certain .... throwing money at the problem will not solve it.


Hegelian dialectic:

"Another form of the Hegelian Dialectic is Problem – Reaction – Solution. Most of us unwittingly fall victim to it all too often and sadly if we don’t stop, we will continue to lose our free will and liberties. It has been widely used by our governments and corporations around the world. You could say that in terms of controlling the masses, and society in general, it’s deployment has been an effective tool in keeping humanity in check.

Almost all major events in history employ the Hegelian Dialectic of:
Problem – manufacture a crisis or take advantage of one already in place in order to get the desired Reaction of public outcry whereby the public demands a Solution which has been predetermined from the beginning."

More power for the police force, and the authorities.

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:29 pm
by Sinead
The dead mean has been named as B. Messitt, I wonder is this a son of our one time Olympian Bertie Messit formerly of Shankill. It is a very unusual name. May he rest in peace.

Life has again become very cheap in Ireland, just as it was in the days of the Magdalene women.

Sinéad xxx

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:07 pm
by keeper
I was thinking that too Sinéad ! Bertie was a bus conductor from Shankill, but the man who died his surname was Messet, different from Messit. Bertie RIP was 82 when he passed on some years ago, I was thinking Grandson at first but with the surname spelled differently I don't think there is any connection.

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:00 am
by Rocker
Here is an interesting one.

We all hear reports on the radio of lack of housing etc.

I took a casual drive around many estates in the Boro. I was surprised by the number of Council houses boarded up. I asked locals the story and in some cases was told...."No one wants that house! It has been idle for x.y.or z years.

If the situation is so desperate ...why won't people take the houses??


Maybe a silly question!!
Is is anti social behaviour in the various neighbourhoods?

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:58 pm
by Toss
Rocker wrote:If the situation is so desperate ...why won't people take the houses??


Why should they ?

We have reared a section of society that I could only call the "entitled" generation.

There are a lot of people out there who have NEVER worked a day in their lives. They have been handed everything from the start, no pressure to attend school, no requirement to behave at school or in public, no fear of consequences.... get pregnant and you get rewarded with huge supports and free money every month without any demands or controls. I know of one young lady (17) who was peeved because her sister had got a penthouse apartment in Dundrum and was turning down all offers until she got the same. The council explained to her that her unfortunate sister (19) with three kids, had more housing points than her..... guess what happened next ? yes she 'fell' pregnant two years in a row !!! and why not, its what the state is telling them to do. The reason many old council estate houses are not wanted is simple .... why should my Mary take that kip when that one down there with three kids got a new apartment in Honey Park with all new mod cons.... 'I want that'.

I have said it before and I will say it again ....... STOP giving out free supports without demanding something in return ! I would happily give Mary her apartment, but in return I would tell her that her childrens allowance will be paid on the basis of their school attendance and behaviour. So any day her child misses school will cost her money, I have a feeling that her children will suddenly never miss a day and grow up better educated and with much more respect for teachers and schools. The only problem with curing societies ill's is what do you do with all those feeding off it (under the guise of supporting the poor) ? middle class Ireland has an industry around helping the poor and if you take that away, then what ?

Chicken and egg scenario :P

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:27 pm
by Dancer
Toss wrote:
Rocker wrote:If the situation is so desperate ...why won't people take the houses??


Why should they ?

We have reared a section of society that I could only call the "entitled" generation.

There are a lot of people out there who have NEVER worked a day in their lives. They have been handed everything from the start, no pressure to attend school, no requirement to behave at school or in public, no fear of consequences.... get pregnant and you get rewarded with huge supports and free money every month without any demands or controls. I know of one young lady (17) who was peeved because her sister had got a penthouse apartment in Dundrum and was turning down all offers until she got the same. The council explained to her that her unfortunate sister (19) with three kids, had more housing points than her..... guess what happened next ? yes she 'fell' pregnant two years in a row !!! and why not, its what the state is telling them to do. The reason many old council estate houses are not wanted is simple .... why should my Mary take that kip when that one down there with three kids got a new apartment in Honey Park with all new mod cons.... 'I want that'.

I have said it before and I will say it again ....... STOP giving out free supports without demanding something in return ! I would happily give Mary her apartment, but in return I would tell her that her childrens allowance will be paid on the basis of their school attendance and behaviour. So any day her child misses school will cost her money, I have a feeling that her children will suddenly never miss a day and grow up better educated and with much more respect for teachers and schools. The only problem with curing societies ill's is what do you do with all those feeding off it (under the guise of supporting the poor) ? middle class Ireland has an industry around helping the poor and if you take that away, then what ?

Chicken and egg scenario :P


I agree 100% with you on this matter .

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:57 am
by bugrock
Toss, you're not often wrong, but you are right now!

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:29 pm
by Sinead
Toss, I agree with you. A person on the housing list can refuse 2 offers of housing but they must accept the 3rd.
When a Local Authority House is vacated, it then takes the Authority about 2 years to pull it apart and return it to its' original state e.g. kitchen's, flooring etc., ripped out. What a waste of resources.

Sinéad

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:19 pm
by Toss
Sinead wrote:When a Local Authority House is vacated, it then takes the Authority about 2 years to pull it apart and return it to its' original state e.g. kitchen's, flooring etc., ripped out. What a waste of resources.

Sinéad


This is exactly what kills me ..... we have empty houses and the lack of imagination and motivation is astounding (and usually hidden behind some health and safety excuse). Whats wrong with talking to a homeless family and agreeing a partnership approach to redesigning an old vacant council property .... the proposed tennant is asked to work on the house as part of the deal. I would hazard a guess that there are some very experienced older tradesmen out there, who may not have the body strength to do all the manual labour BUT could easily be used to help teach and work with some eager tennants. Those tennants would then have a vested interest in making sure 'their' house is exactly what they want and not some generic waste of time and money .... if they want to choose paint colours, they why not as long as they are willing to help out by undercoating or doing some of the prep work. This is not rocket science and a co-operative housing approach is a great way of ensuring the new tennant has some stake invested their new home plus they will almost certainly look after it far better...... as they would with their estates :roll:

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:25 pm
by bugrock
Must be Aussies in charge of Housing. We have exactly the same thing here.

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:59 pm
by Rocker
bugrock wrote:Must be Aussies in charge of Housing. We have exactly the same thing here.


:D :D Oh Bugs :D

Toss never a truer word was spoken. I watched a house near me. It was really well cared for by the tenants. They decided they wanted to move to a smaller house in a newer estate. Their house was pristine and ready to walk into but!!! the Council spent months pulling out the gorgeous kitchen , the new radiators, the gorgeous doors and when i asked someone why they were moving walls inside they told me the house had to be put back the way it was!!!!! Well the tenants wee there over 20 years!! they had improved the place beyond recognition ....where is the logic in spending money making it worse and more cramped (by putting back in the old room configuration) !! the mind boggles

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:22 pm
by gingertom
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1944 ... print.html

It would be impossible and illegal to administrate a child benefit system, under proposals made above. Why?......the payment of which would be based upon attendances recorded by the school at which they would attend. This would amount to the permissibility of such a decision as whether or not a payment should be, made being undertaken by the school, (and not a deciding officer of Social Protection) which is beyond school authority to decide as per all previous legislation. And should remain so. If such legislation was introduced it would introduce even more red tape, further costs and would be open to probable constitutional challenge with the resultant current dispensation of the universality of child benefit to parents who qualify. Unworkable unfortunately.
Maybe read below for guidance but it is 2 years old.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/educati ... -1.2601082

More guidance here. I think the admin of this would give already costly governance even more financial responsibilities to cover.
Would a monthly statement need to be provided to illustrate any reductions...just like a payslip. The postal cost to remit.......the payroll program to oversee and admin. Unfortunately this would be costly and unworkable. This system would be potentially just as wasteful as the practices it would be employed to terminate.

Toss, think of the litigation............ hellllo

http://www.thejournal.ie/parents-convic ... 5-Apr2018/

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:36 pm
by gingertom
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/ho ... lists.html

Some info on housing regs on the above link.

Toss, maybe of interest to you. Somewhat eye-opening. Note the judicial review capability on constitutional grounds.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-a ... -1.3173830

A reduction in all such family or child related payments could be construed as an unjust attack on the constitutionally protected family unit and single parents are not outside this protection. The courts could be clogged with judicial review applications resulting from proposals such that have been contended here.

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:55 pm
by gingertom
Solution to housing problems could be........Stop land hoarding by developers with increased punitive taxation measures. This taxation, which is constitutionally permissible and would help to force reticent developers to open up their dormant lands for housing. Additionally, Government and decision makers must make sure that developers are not allowed abrogate or avoid any relevant social housing responsibilities, as Dún Laoghaire Rathdown C.C (amongst others) did in the early part of this century, by permitting fiscal payment in lieu of the provision of such. Local Councillors step up to the plate.... please! DLRCC should be compelled to open up any of their vacant dwellings by simply making them habitable or leaving that which is already such.

Re: Somewhere to Chat.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:55 am
by Strum
Rocker wrote: Toss never a truer word was spoken. I watched a house near me. It was really well cared for by the tenants. They decided they wanted to move to a smaller house in a newer estate. Their house was pristine and ready to walk into but!!! the Council spent months pulling out the gorgeous kitchen , the new radiators, the gorgeous doors and when i asked someone why they were moving walls inside they told me the house had to be put back the way it was!!!!! Well the tenants wee there over 20 years!! they had improved the place beyond recognition ....where is the logic in spending money making it worse and more cramped (by putting back in the old room configuration) !! the mind boggles



To back you up on that Rocker. A lady in the flat below me sadly collapsed with an aneurysm while talking to a neighbour about four months after she had moved in, she had just finished furnishing the place, and then her next of kin had two weeks to clear out what they could before it was anti-squatter barricaded.
NINE MONTHS later a CoCo van pulled up and they spend a day ripping out everything that lady had installed that the state had given her money to install in the first place, crazy huh. I have no doubt that the guys in these vans make a good few quid out of what next of kin can't take away and sell off to dealers.
So the place was left bare, totally stripped, a concrete floor and they gave it to a 65 year old man in the middle of a freezing February, "because that's what the coco rules stipulate"