Refugees

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Refugees

Postby Micheál » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:11 pm

Please read it all . . .


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Re: Refugees

Postby Strum » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:55 pm

thumleft
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Re: Refugees

Postby Zirco » Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:14 pm

Brill! wuu wuu wuu
Poetry is great.....this is so clever.
:lol:
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Rage, rage against the dying of the light".
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Re: Refugees

Postby bugrock » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:49 pm

Very good Micheal. Unfortunately I almost stopped a few lines down, in disgust, thinking you were a racist and a bigot. I'm glad I read the rest. But, how many would? dontknow dontknow dontknow
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Re: Refugees

Postby Snowhite » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:23 am

Good Poem well put together, still think we should look after our own people first though.
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Re: Refugees

Postby Rocker » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:48 am

I'm really torn on the whole situation in Europe. It is quite frightening when you see the masses of down and outs in the outskirts of Paris, Amsterdam and especially Vienna where I have seen the increases first hand and in a lot of places there are some low like characters who have come to Europe to piggy back on the problem pickpocketing, stealing,abusing women etc. In the 80's I was horrified when I met the Roma problem in Hungry and was heartbroken by the treatment they received but, put them on the streets of Dublin and my sympathy dilutes when i have to run the gauntlet every time I get off the bus.What am I?? NAMBY, I suppose.

I'm from the Rock where I was born and bred in isolation. I only knew the Catholic religion, knew nothing of other races,languages, cultures, religions, etc. I find the problem overwhelming. I want to help but don't want Ireland swamped by a complete ethnic upheaval. In the 60's I used to visit family in Birmingham and it was a very pleasant place, skip forward 50 years and there are parts where you cannot go now with racial differences and ghettos. Smells and sights which are alien to us backwater folk.They do not want us whites in their area and make me feel very unwelcome.

I know I will never understand tribal differences, race hatreds, casts systems,sharia laws and when they are all together in the one place it makes for chaos. I could not survive on the streets of Mozembique, Dar e Salaam, Juba in the Sudan.

I for one as a European on the edge of Europe feel very ill equipped to handle what Greece, Turkey, Macadonia etc are dealing with.

It is not just a matter of sharing our homes and food. It is a billion times bigger than that. Both us and the refugee have to realise that we are different and we cannot change them and equally so they cannot change us. If I am in Rome I do as the Romans do so if they are in Ireland they should do as the irish do.

A little aside but, it colours my feelings. I had to walk up and down Talbot Street every day to work. Over the years it became increasingly multiethnic. I was pushed aside by fellows flowing out of the mosque eyeing the women with distain. Jostled at every bus stop by various African subcontinent women.( I remonstrated with one once and she got me up against the wall and told me I would know what pushing was about when the coloured man took over my puny country).Was aware of very tough pimps assisting that age old tradition. I know we have out our low lifes but at least we feel we know their ways. Dealing with other gangs is different.
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Re: Refugees

Postby slipper » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:08 pm

No argument from me Rocker!
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Re: Refugees

Postby grammer » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:12 pm

Snowy Rocker & slipper
Rocker you could'nt have worded it better.

I think we face a very unsettled future in our little country.
Remember what the little rabbitte said-"Ireland does not belong to the Irish people"-and that is the loud opinion of the minority who make and demand changes in our way of life-
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Re: Refugees

Postby Toss » Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:11 pm

Rocker wrote: I had to walk up and down Talbot Street every day to work. Over the years it became increasingly multiethnic. I was pushed aside by fellows flowing out of the mosque eyeing the women with distain. Jostled at every bus stop by various African subcontinent women.( I remonstrated with one once and she got me up against the wall and told me I would know what pushing was about when the coloured man took over my puny country).Was aware of very tough pimps assisting that age old tradition. I know we have out our low lifes but at least we feel we know their ways. Dealing with other gangs is different.


wuu wuu wuu well said Rocker
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Re: Refugees

Postby Sinead » Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:07 am

Rocker:

Having worked in Dublin for many years I fully understand what you say.
I had a difference with an emigrant who shouted at me 'you no do this
to me if I your son' he then told me he would go to Joe Duffy. He was
most surprised when I offered to find the 'phone number for him.

Like you I have seen refugees in many places around the world. Most
striking and heart tugging were Lebanon and Jordan last year. The
conditions in which they were living was horrific. It was Summer/
Autumn when I saw it, they had flimsy plastic covering and this was
what they would have in winter when it gets a lot colder than here with
snow and ice.

I have no solution but it is certainly frightening to see.

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Re: Refugees

Postby Toss » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:16 pm

Sinead wrote:Rocker:
The conditions in which they were living was horrific. It was Summer/
Autumn when I saw it, they had flimsy plastic covering and this was
what they would have in winter when it gets a lot colder than here with
snow and ice.

I have no solution but it is certainly frightening to see.

Sinéad


When I was in Rome in 1990, I visited the Vatican and witnessed the shanty towns outside the walled city ..... the poor were starving and living under tarpaulins and anything that would offer any sort of protection from the elements. Then we witnessed the vulgar opulence and grandure inside the Vatican, it was disgusting and many of us lost any respect we had left for the catholic church there and then. We later found out that the only reason we seen the shanty towns was the fact that we were not on any official bus or taxi (they were under orders to avoid such routes and vistas).

Sadly, poverty exists because those in positions of power want it .... they give lip service and offer token gestures, but in reality they are responsible.
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Re: Refugees

Postby Sinead » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:07 pm

Toss:

Over the past 50 years I have visited Rome many times, never as a pilgrim and I confess
I didn't witness what you describe, it could be the side of the Vatican I entered did
not show these refugees. I did see many Gypsy encampments.

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Re: Refugees

Postby Zirco » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:17 pm

It's a tough nut alright, the refugee issue. I've read your post several times Rocker about being torn about the refugees etc around Europe, the changes to Talbot Street etc. And the other posts too....poverty versus opulence at the Vatican etc. What to do, what to do?
I think of the turmoil in Europe after WWII. So many displaced persons.....millions in dire need of food and shelter. Somehow, (emigration, Marshall Plan, rebuilding of Europe) they were helped and the problem receded.
Now we have millions coming out of North Africa, Middle East, Afghanistan and Pakistan etc. Somehow, we have to provide help and solve this problem.
As Grammer said, our little country is going to experience change. Change that is probably more rapid than we would wish.

Hundreds of thousands of Irish men and women had to leave here and find economic and social havens in other countries, our refugees, so to speak. So we should have sympathy for these new refugees.
People are the same the world over. They want to raise their family in safety...they want their children to have a good future to look forward to. They want to live long enough to enjoy their grandchildren.
Ireland is a first world nation with a bright future to look forward to. Hopefully it will be an inclusive society, welcoming thousands of foreign workers to help drive our economy forward.
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Re: Refugees

Postby Strum » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:28 pm

Dare I tell you what I think but I might get barred? babbby
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Re: Refugees

Postby Zirco » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:59 pm

Strum wrote:Dare I tell you what I think but I might get barred? babbby


Ha! Go for it Strum.... wuu wuu wuu
Do you like the above poem read from the top down?
I'm in the 'bottom up' camp.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Refugees

Postby Toss » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:13 pm

Sinead wrote:Toss:

Over the past 50 years I have visited Rome many times, never as a pilgrim and I confess
I didn't witness what you describe, it could be the side of the Vatican I entered did
not show these refugees. I did see many Gypsy encampments.

Sinéad


I have no idea what side we entered from as we were lost most of the time (no sat navs back then). I didnt say they were refugees, they were what I described as poor people ... ie under nourished and poorly dressed with no shoes etc. I dont know if they were Gypsies, how would I know the difference in Italy ? if its gold teeth and brass jewellery then no they were not gypsies.... but maybe they were the Italian version ?.

No matter what, these people were destitute and it was not a pretty sight. However business was in full flow once inside the Vatican, where you could buy all sorts of iconic religious items and for an extra few lira you could even take pictures and video you visit :(
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Re: Refugees

Postby MickR » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:23 pm

I came across this article by an Irish journalist. Anyone got a view? Looks a bit toxic to me but there are some valid points. It was written about 9 years ago before we had the more recent influx and crisis in the Med etc etc.

Irishman's Insight on Africa

Kevin Myers (born 30 March 1947) is an Irish journalist and writer. He writes for the Irish edition of the Sunday Times, having previously been a columnist for the Irish Independent and a former contributor to The Irish Times, where he wrote the "An Irishman's Diary" opinion column several times weekly. Until 2005, he wrote for the UK Sunday Telegraph. His articles criticise left-wing opinion and the "liberal consensus", sometimes incorporating hyperbole, sarcasm and parody. This essay appeared in The Irish Independent:

Somalia is not a humanitarian disaster; it is an evolutionary disaster. The current drought is not the worst in 50 years, as the BBC and all the aid organisations claim. It is nothing compared to the droughts in 1960/61 or 73/74. And there are continuing droughts every 5 years or so.
It's just that there are now four times the population; having been kept alive by famine relief, supplied by aid organisations, over the past 50 years. So, of course, the effects of any drought now, is a famine. They cannot even feed themselves in a normal rainfall year.

Worst yet, the effects of these droughts, and poor nutrition in the first 3 years of the a child's life, have a lasting effect on the development of the infant brain, so that if they survive, they will never achieve a normal IQ. Consequently, they are selectively breeding a population who cannot be educated, let alone one that is not being educated; a recipe for disaster.

We are seeing this impact now, and it can only exacerbate, to the detriment of their neighbours, and their environment as well. This scenario can only end in an even worse disaster; with even worse suffering, for those benighted people, and their descendants. Eventually, some mechanism will intervene, be it war, disease or starvation. So what do we do? Let them starve?

What a dilemma for our Judeo/Christian/Islamic Ethos; as well as Hindu/Buddhist morality. And this is beginning to happen in Kenya , Ethiopia and other countries in Asia, like Pakistan . Is this the beginning of the end of civilisation?

AFRICA is giving nothing to anyone outside Africa -- apart from AIDS and new diseases.
Even as we see African states refusing to take action to restore something resembling civilisation in Zimbabwe , the begging bowl for Ethiopia is being passed around to us out of Africa , yet again. It is nearly 25 years since the famous Feed The World campaign began in Ethiopia , and in that time Ethiopia 's population has grown from 33.5 million to 78+ million today. So, why on earth should I do anything to encourage further catastrophic demographic growth in that country? Where is the logic? There is none.

To be sure, there are two things saying that logic doesn't count. One is my conscience, and the other is the picture, yet again, of another wide-eyed child, yet again, gazing, yet again, at the camera, which yet again, captures the tragedy of children starving. Sorry. My conscience has toured this territory on foot and financially. Unlike most of you, I have been to Ethiopia ; like most of you, I have stumped up the loot to charities to stop starvation there.
The wide-eyed boy-child we saved, 20 years or so ago, is now a low IQ, AK 47-bearing moron, siring children whenever the whim takes him and blaming the world because he is uneducated, poor and left behind. There is no doubt a good argument why we should prolong this predatory and dysfunctional economic, social and sexual system but I do not know what it is. There is, on the other hand, every reason not to write a column like this.
It will win no friends and will provoke the self-righteous wrath of, well, the self-righteous hand wringing, letter writing wrathful individuals; a species which never fails to contaminate almost every debate in Irish life with its sneers and its moral superiority. It will also probably enrage some of the finest men in Irish life, like John O'Shea, of Goal; and the Finucane brothers, men whom I admire enormously.

So be it.
But, please, please, you self-righteously wrathful, spare me mention of our own Irish Famine, with this or that lazy analogy. There is no comparison. Within 20 years of the Famine, the Irish population was down by 30%. Over the equivalent period, thanks to western food, the Mercedes 10-wheel truck and the Lockheed Hercules plane, Ethiopia 's population has more than doubled. Alas, that wretched country is not alone in its madness.

Somewhere, over the rainbow, lies Somalia , another fine land of violent, AK 47-toting, khat-chewing, girl-circumcising, permanently tumescent layabouts and housing pirates of the ocean. Indeed, we now have almost an entire continent of sexually hyperactive, illiterate indigents, with tens of millions of people who only survive because of help from the outside world or allowances by the semi-communist Governments they voted for, money supplied by borrowing it from the World Bank!

This dependency has not stimulated political prudence or common sense.
Indeed, voodoo idiocy seems to be in the ascendant, with the president of South Africa being a firm believer in the efficacy of a little tap water on the post-coital penis as a sure preventative against AIDS infection. Needless to say, poverty, hunger and societal meltdown have not prevented idiotic wars involving Tigre , Uganda , Congo , Sudan , Somalia , Eritrea , etcetera.
Broad brush-strokes, to be sure. But broad brush-strokes are often the way that history paints its gaudier, if more decisive, chapters. Japan, China, Russia, Korea, Poland, Germany, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the 20th century have endured worse broad brush-strokes than almost any part of Africa. They are now -- one way or another -- virtually all giving aid to or investing in Africa, whereas Africa , with its vast savannah’s and its lush pastures, is giving almost nothing to anyone, apart from AIDS.

Meanwhile, Africa 's peoples are outstripping their resources, and causing catastrophic ecological degradation.
By 2050, the population of Ethiopia will be 177 million; the equivalent of France , Germany and Benelux today, but located on the parched and increasingly Protein-free wastelands of the Great Rift Valley . So, how much sense does it make for us actively to increase the adult population of what is already a vastly over-populated, environmentally devastated and economically dependent country?

How much morality is there in saving an Ethiopian child from starvation today, for it to survive to a life of brutal circumcision, poverty, hunger, violence and sexual abuse, resulting in another half-dozen such wide-eyed children, with comparably jolly little lives ahead of them? Of course, it might make you feel better, which is a prime reason for so much charity! But that is not good enough.
For self-serving generosity has been one of the curses of Africa . It has sustained political systems which would otherwise have collapsed. It prolonged the Eritrean-Ethiopian war by nearly a decade.
It is inspiring Bill Gates' programme to rid the continent of malaria, when, in the almost complete absence of personal self-discipline, that disease is one of the most efficacious forms of population-control now operating. If his programme is successful, tens of millions of children who would otherwise have died in infancy will survive to adulthood, he boasts.

Oh good, then what? I know, let them all come here (to Ireland ) or America ...or Australia ?
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Re: Refugees

Postby Toss » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:16 pm

MickR wrote:I came across this article by an Irish journalist. Anyone got a view? Looks a bit toxic to me but there are some valid points. It was written about 9 years ago before we had the more recent influx and crisis in the Med etc etc.

Somalia is not a humanitarian disaster; it is an evolutionary disaster. The current drought is not the worst in 50 years, as the BBC and all the aid organisations claim. It is nothing compared to the droughts in 1960/61 or 73/74. And there are continuing droughts every 5 years or so.
It's just that there are now four times the population; having been kept alive by famine relief, supplied by aid organisations, over the past 50 years. So, of course, the effects of any drought now, is a famine. They cannot even feed themselves in a normal rainfall year.


My view is that we are a small dot on the world map and despite what we think, we are nothing in the real decision making world. The reality is that the real powers that be are not in the slightest bit interested in whether one or one million die of starvation anywhere in the world ..... they operate for profit and are now so powerful that they control countries.

The real Mr Big's are never challenged as they hide behind scenes and have others do their bidding for them. Until such time as enough people start to see beyond the spin, nothing will change and people will die .................. is it really any different from selling cigarettes for profit and knowing that they are killing people, life is cheap when theres money to be made.

Kevin talks abour charity and religion ..... those are now just vehicles for profit these days. Obscene amounts of money are filtered through them and all along the way, there is a few bob in it for you and you and you. If there was no money to be made out of charitable causes, then we would not have an endless list of companies all telling us they are helping X, Y and Z.

I am of the opinion that charity begins at home .... help those around you, offer physical assistance and dont throw money at a problem without knowing where it is being spent. I will happily meet my maker knowing that I have never helped the poor person halfway around the world, because I know I have helped my neighbours and and if everyone did that, then that poor person halfway around the world would have his neighbour to help him .... and not some scammer making a career out of his misery.
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Re: Refugees

Postby Strum » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:46 pm

MickR wrote: I know, let them all come here (to Ireland ) or America ...or Australia ?


Interesting read whatever you think of Mr. Myres.

Exactly what's happening now, and most of the tens of thousands from Africa flooding into Europe are NOT refugees fleeing war, but single un-vetted Migrant men between the ages of 18 - 35 years of age, carrying a myriad of diseases including AIDS, Syphilis and Tuberculosis. -I don't know what sites you folks read but from what I'm reading over the past year or so, Sweden, Germany, France and Italy are, lets just say, in big trouble from the influx of these migrants...and this is only the beginning.
Don't get me wrong now, refugees fleeing war torn countries need our help badly but I'm not talking about those people, we can look after them but as far as these migrants are concerned we need to mind our own people first. These Migrants are mostly uneducated and diseased just as Mr. Myers wrote about above, have no social or work skills or ethics and are here for the welfare and nothing else, same right across Europe.

Then again everything I read is probably right-wing fake news. :mrgreen:
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Re: Refugees

Postby Sinead » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:14 pm

When referring to refugees you must always distinguish between 'economic' and 'war'.

In places such as Syria the family will put together whatever monies they have and send
the most able bodied male off in the hope that he will make it to a place of safety and
in time take the remainder of the family to this place of refuge and peace until they can
return to their home. In the main refugees created by war always want to go home.

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Re: Refugees

Postby MickR » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:58 am

Sinead wrote:When referring to refugees you must always distinguish between 'economic' and 'war'.

In places such as Syria the family will put together whatever monies they have and send
the most able bodied male off in the hope that he will make it to a place of safety and
in time take the remainder of the family to this place of refuge and peace until they can
return to their home. In the main refugees created by war always want to go home.

Sinéad


I should not post after a few half's but i have to say The Donald is not wrong when he shouts about fake news and the BBC beauties. During the run up to the referendum on Brexit the papers and BBC news were full of refugees in boats dying in their hundreds daily in the Med. Since the vote I have not seen one photo of a drowning refugee. Funny that? Have they sorted the problem? No it just does not serve their political view any more. Fake news is probably the wrong term, its more convenient news to suit the agenda they want to push. I dont agree with the Donald but I am absolutely convinced that I take what the press say with caution in the extreme. And don't you just hate that areshole Enda Brady on SKY with his elocution based english. Total wanker. Night all.
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Re: Refugees

Postby Rocker » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:36 pm

It took me years to realise that every country only shows "news" that suits their agenda. Whenever I am in Europe I feel like I have landed on Mars with the topics which are relayed. Bit like the Catholic Church teaching of old the Irish Newsmedia just tell us the sanitised Irish version. For years I never knew I was living in a corrupt banana republic :lol: :lol: I just thought that every country hissed on their peoples!!

News is just a nine days wonder. I remember in 2011 I was thinking of visiting Japan and the tsunami hit and the nuclear plant was damaged. For days we saw pictures of devastation and then the news moved on. I thought all was hunky dorey there but, when I eventually visited in 2015 I realised how many people were still homeless, hungry, etc, refugees in their own country feeding at soup kitchens etc. The proud people do not complain it is not in their culture. I witnessed famine in Egypt which we have never heard of drought in so many countries, extreme poverty deprivation, inhuman treatment, corrupt regimes. Really the world is in a state of chassis and the lid is mostly kept on.

The moving hoardes of youth are opening our eyes to world problems. As I said before I have no solution but, I do not blame them for trying to survive and seek a better life for their children. I just don't want anyone trying to take over our little heaven that is Ireland.
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Re: Refugees

Postby Strum » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:21 pm

Rocker wrote: I just don't want anyone trying to take over our little heaven that is Ireland.



Alas Rocker, statistics don't lie.... :|



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Re: Refugees

Postby Sinead » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:29 pm

MickR

Only last week yet another disaster was reported in the Med - out of a boatload of approximately
340 there was only 1 surviver.

The Med has fallen off the radar because of Yemen etc.

For the past few months I have been watching BBC International as my main source of news - they have reported
NOTHING about Brexit. NI - the funeral of Martin McGuinness was reported but as to the formation of The Assembly
it was put in as an after thought!

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