Water and other political issues.

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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Rocker » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:33 pm

I'm wading my way throught this paper by Yvonne Scannell, Arthur Cox Solicitors about reparian rights. Interesting and complex.

http://igi.ie/assets/files/Groundwater% ... Issues.pdf
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby grammer » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:56 pm

So even the ministers cant figure out how to solve the water payment/no payment question.

My bills are still sitting here -I wish they'd hurry up and make up their minds.

I kinda feel tho the street protests will return by the end of January.
Outstanding bills will never be paid.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:10 pm

The Oireachtas will vote on future water charges upon the expiration of the suspension of current water charges, on the 31 March 2017. Yes Rocker there is no doubt that the provision of water is complicated further when one looks at the commercial use of water in Ireland, or perhaps even globally. That is an interesting article and illustrates the ability to use self replenishing water sources on land controlled or adjacent to companies by companies. I was trying to shed some light on the commercial use function, to illustrate for all to understand, as to how companies may be permitted to use water to manufacture their finished product legally. Also I include an article which gives a further insight into the current government position.
Minister Coveney has said, quite correctly, that those who have outstanding debt, will be pursued.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/ ... 32955.html
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Denis Cromie » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:20 pm

That's a very interesting report Rocker and as you say the whole area of water rights are very,very complex.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Sinead » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:25 pm

Rocker, that paper is as complex as Yvonne herself!

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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:06 pm

grammer wrote:I kinda feel tho the street protests will return by the end of January.


21st actually Grammer. ;)

Regarding the viewers folks, always remember that this Forum is open to the public so every view counts. 400 is fantastic, but yes a shame silent users or unregistered public viewers do not comment, but still, that amount of interest is inspiring. This Forum for me is a trusted site on the internet for intelligent opinions and knowledge, particularly this subject.
No fake news here and the members run the site.
I look in to read but I don't comment because, well you know yourselves, I haven't a clue what I'm talking about most of the time. :lol:


Keep it up folks. thumbright
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:20 pm

gingertom wrote: Minister Coveney has said, quite correctly, that those who have outstanding debt, will be pursued.



I read they debated which was cheaper, pay people back or pursue the defiant ones. Do you think it would really go as far as to take it from welfare and wages?
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:23 am

Strum wrote:
gingertom wrote: Minister Coveney has said, quite correctly, that those who have outstanding debt, will be pursued.


I read they debated which was cheaper, pay people back or pursue the defiant ones. Do you think it would really go as far as to take it from welfare and wages?


Its their mess and they are on tenderhooks as they are starting to see the error of their ways in terms of thinking you can fool all the people all the time. They know the danger is a Trump wildcard emerging and ruining their cosy 'I stepped out, she stepped in again' routine.

The simple way to deal with this is to give tax credits all those who paid, because any attempts at taking more money will only feed into the anti-establishment mindset and will cause further devides as those on low wages are struggling already. The joke is that they could solve the problem instantly by adding a 0.5 cent tax on mobile phone texts and use the money to fix the system ..... oh hang on, better not, as all the consultants that have us in this mess will only be called in again and as usual no work will get done on the repairs that matter.

As regards the threads ever increasing viewer numbers .... in a way it shows how fearful we have become, it probably explains why the same politicians get elected as nobody really questions them (anything on the TV / Radio is a set up best ignored). It would also explain why so many people dont bother voting ....... politics in Ireland has become a no go topic for far too many. Politics should be of the people and for the people, not some select career move to be handed down through generations as a great pensionable job. Ireland needs more people to speak up and the water issue has awoken many a dormant mind, lets hope the lessons are being learned and we get a better service from those we put in a position of power.

:P
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:25 am

I think that if a plan to deduct from salaries and welfare payments without permission from the payee would be a retrograde step. I remember that it was proposed that the charge, if unpaid, could be discharged upon either probate or a sale by the title owner. Currently if the residential property tax has been deferred of was not paid, the property could not be sold until this was settled. I think this should apply to water charges. Remember 64 % of those liable for the charge paid the charge. Therefore it would be wrong to allow defaulters to be exempt from their liability. Another major issue is that the EU Authorities are still insistent on charging for waste water service, which obliges the state, to charge users for this provision. If we don't accidentally leave the EU with all that collateral Brexit damage , unfortunately we are most likely stuck with water charges in some form. Whether it is taken from billing users or otherwise. As usual the government have kicked this down the road and this only makes the associated problems even bigger.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Rocker » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:08 pm

I am feeling a bit "whats done is done " on the water charges. I was selling my house so had to pay the water charges to complete the sale and I was more than surprised at the small amount I had to pay. I had previously availed of the €100 present !. Other people elected to abide by the law and pay the charges from the start of the charging.So that is done and we should not expect any refunds...as they say nowadays "moving on from that". Years ago i was one who paid my water charges and bin charges and never expected a refund when they were abolished. I also never expected a refund of the house rates which in the 60's were crippling....I don't expect money back from Arnotts for a coat I bought and wore for years!!

The whole Irish Water set up is the problem and we all resent the big salaries, the jobs for the boys, the stupid set up, the big brother advertisements.Threatening us for the years of mismanagement of our resources. I am also mad at the years of mismanagement of the water infrastructure in Ireland. Most Councils just did the minimum to keep the water flowing through the pipes and couldn't care what condition the piping is in.Around here we have the original Vartry pipes rotten to the core God knows what crap is coming in through the tap and Dún Laoghaire County Council never cared so why is it my problem now. Miles and miles of pipes are leaking with pin holes and they want us to fix them when all the years they got our hard earned taxes to do the work. Councils should first of all face the charges of neglect and then take it from there.

Councils in the country were only too happy over the years to pass the buck and let the poor in villages source water, well it and pipe it to communities. The Group Water Schemes were seen as a Godsend in rural communities but, they were only a passing of the buck from the Councils who must have been laughing up their sleeves. Volunteers monitored the schemes, levied the charges and collected the revenue which in most cases was just enough to keep the water flowing to the dirt poor homesteads. Ha, how the Councils must have rubbed their hands in glee...sorted.. another problem shifted.

The whole matter is a mess and not the problem of the little man in the street who has been screwed all his life by mismanagement.Water should not be a vote getter.

I don't mind paying for all my services but I want the infrastructure properly run. I don't want five or six men standing looking at water pouring out of pipes and they discussing whose problem it is, who should fix it. I don't want Council fellows looking over their shoulders at Irish Water fellows who are trying to get a grip of the situation but don't want to ask as they know they will take the Council's fellows jobs when they know enough...been there...wore the tee shirt....every new broom thinks they will brush out the old workers and hey presto the problem will be sorted. No way Hose A..as the old joke goes. The Council lads in every area have the expertise, they may not have had decent management or proper finances to do the work properly But a whole load of new raw recruits "wannabees" as we called them in my old job or "yellow packs" as they were called in shops or "fellows with degrees" arenot going to sort out the 100 year old problem It will take a lot of hard graft, a shed load of money, a lot of commitment and expertise to even start.

Anyway, I am ranting and raving but bottom line I don't mind paying for water if I can drink it and if it is fit for purpose and if they can guarantee a supply and if IF water stays in the ownership of the people of Ireland....paramount inportance.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Sinead » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:32 pm

I confess I have followed all this topic but have not made any remarkable responses. I have said before I do not believe water is a right. With rights - responsibilities attach. Did you hear the report during the week of the effluence being pumped into our rivers?
From the start I paid whatever charge the government/local authority imposed because I looked on it as my responsibility. I never found the charges as heavy as were the rates which were in situ up to the 1960's. I can well remember my mother's struggle to ensure she had the moieties saved by the due dates. My mother was a widow who reared her 6 children, without any of the great perks, that are there for people in the same boat in the present day.

Tell the people of Sudan or Eritrea that water is a right, they will just look at you. During the past week I saw a neighbour wash his car, drive, railings and outer wall with drinking water, wasteful? This person is not in the first flush of youth but he seems to ignore his responsibilities.

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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:50 pm

Rocker wrote:I don't mind paying for water if I can drink it and if it is fit for purpose and if they can guarantee a supply and if IF water stays in the ownership of the people of Ireland....paramount inportance.



Totally agree Rocker and I reckon everybody else would too IF that were the case BUT it's not. I think the people have copped on and can see where this is going in the future, privatisation.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:10 pm

Ah c'mon now. The state of the Country and we're giving 90 million for bloody space exploration?



http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1202/836046 ... y-ireland/
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:40 pm

Strum wrote:Ah c'mon now. The state of the Country and we're giving 90 million for bloody space exploration?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1202/836046 ... y-ireland/


Probably hoping to send all the homeless, sick and infirm to Mars :oops:

Talk about getting your priorities wrong, but its not their fault as they didnt elect themselves.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:10 pm

Just thought this article might be of interest to all.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/medi ... -1.2891299

€90m is a huge sum of money.But If we stop funding the innovation, technology and medical experimentation that will be tested on the resultant space exploration, we may restrict our ability to increase knowledge to advance understanding within the fields mentioned. I note that there is a housing crisis in the state and yes the authorities should see this as the priority to address before funding such projects. It calls to mind the funding allocated to keep families accommodated in hotels instead of using the finances to construct homes and allocate the many vacant properties we see all around the county and beyond.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:49 pm

Um I don't know GT, seems a waste of money to me when we can't even look after THIS Planet. What are they REALLY searching for? Other Planets resources for the corporations to exploit?
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:24 pm

Yes Strum, the potential mineral wealth that may exist on other planets and meteors is very attractive to all states, including the United States,Russia and China. Everything must have a balance, especially when it comes to conceptualising where governments' distribution of funding should address a rainbow of symbiotic, competing and essential needs. I think we should consider the theory of unintended consequences whilst assessing such.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Rocker » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:02 am

I'm off on a bit of a tangent here but I have been listening with one ear over the week to the problem of getting the drug Orkambi at a reasonable price for Cystic Fibrosis sufferers. Every politician that comes on the radio is asked about it and they really have no sound knowledge of the matter. It appears that Ireland has the largest percentage of population suffering from CF. There are about 1,200 people and at a guesstimate 400 would benefit from the drug if it can be made available to the Health Service at a reasonable cost.

The state's medicines watchdog - the National Centre for Pharmacoeconomics (NCPE) - believes 'Orkambi' is too expensive.
The drug costs the HSE €159,000 per patient annually - a price the watchdog has deemed too high when compared to the benefits the drug provides to patients.

What struck me today was that every one interviewed seemed to know that the drug at present would cost over 150,000 per patient.

No one put forward the amount that would be saved on other drugs, hospital admissions, etc if the CF patients got the new drug.

No one is putting a price on the hardship endured by the extended families of CF sufferers,mostly children and young adults as the life expectancy is not great.

For my part I'd love to know the true cost of the Methadone Program.

I never knew till today that the James O'Reilly was nominated to the Senate in May 2016 by the teaset...he was on the radio today. :roll:
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:15 pm

Careful Rocker ........ you are starting to talk sense and of course you are right, but that puts fear into the masses and they dont like it. The very mention of Methadone puts them off and God forbid you start asking about the industry created around the administering of the drug.

The Senate has long been a complete waste of money, its a haven for the clique to use as a retirement fund for their mates and arse lickers :o Hows the promised Senate reform going ???? oh look, it probably costs more than ever to run.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Sinead » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:24 am

The people voted to retain the Seanad thus giving the Government a kick in the rear end. I believe the use of a Seanad/Upper House is a good thing, I do no like he manner in which ours is elected/appointed. There should be more panels with a wider electorate and no Government 'picks'. The Constitution needs to be changed so that the two houses can be elected on the same day this cuts out the scramble of failed TD's to rush for the Seanad. The use of Registered Post in parts of the electoral process is not in keeping with to-day's Ireland. This latter point I made at a reform hearing some years ago under the chairmanship of Mary O'Rourke.

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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Rocker » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:41 am

Sinead wrote: The use of Registered Post in parts of the electoral process is not in keeping with to-day's Ireland. This latter point I made at a reform hearing some years ago under the chairmanship of Mary O'Rourke.

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I lived in my last house for over 40 years and still got the University voting papers for the previous tenant. The first few years I reposted the papers back to the University with an explanation and gave the new address of your man. but...election after election...they still arrived at the house and I put in the bin...They were not interested in altering their graduates address lists so why was I getting bent out of shape. BangHead BangHead
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Sinead » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Rocker, I know how frustrated you must have been - the Graduate had claimed the vote and was thereby obliged to keep the University informed of his/her address or ask to be removed from the Register. Why did you accept the Registered Letter?

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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Denis Cromie » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:15 pm

That's a very good article on pensions GT. It's outrages that profitable companies can change a Defined Benefit scheme to a Defined Contributions with the consequences of a huge loss to the workers. You plan your retirement on the basis of what your financial position is understood to be and for that to be so radically changed should never be legally permitted. In regards to Water charges I still hold the view that it's best provided by a single public owned utility and the user pays with some provision for those who cannot afford to.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:01 am

The INM pensioners face shocking cuts to their pensions Denis and sadly, loopholes do exist to allow for this to happen. Unfortunately print media is on the decline but INM is profitable which makes this more intriguing.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:59 pm

gingertom wrote:The INM pensioners face shocking cuts to their pensions Denis and sadly, loopholes do exist to allow for this to happen. Unfortunately print media is on the decline but INM is profitable which makes this more intriguing.


The print media is going the way the Music industry went, it had a good product but failed to take care of its customer base and its staff.
Staff paying into pension schemes for decades have been thrown to the wolves and the state has turned a blind eye ..... but like the Clerys scam, it will soon be old news and nothing will change at the big business end of things. Profits are all that matters for the corporations and nobody seems willing to stand up for the worker anymore, its all about keeping Mr Big happy and fishing in our pond. Theres no doubt that Trump will rock the boat over in the states, the question for us is whether we have enough left to paddle our own canoe if the tide changes :o
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