Water and other political issues.

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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Denis Cromie » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:24 pm

Mick and Clare Daly have been consistent in their criticism of the Gardaí and the Department of Justice for a long time now, but no one listened. Alan Kelly put the spotlight on the Department, all have to be commended. What does it take for any government to ensure that both Gardaí and the Department are fit for purpose, it's essential for any democracy. Lets hope after this debacle something will be done, but I won't hold me breath. BangHead
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Sinead » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:36 pm

Yes, Mick & Claire did keep banging on but they used Dail Prevlidge for their own ends on many occasions.
Mick is far from snow white himself as any of his former employees will confirm. We are paying his wages
and he owes us a fortune.
I believe Mr. Charleton should be allowed get on with the job entrusted to him. In the early 1980's I worked
with this man when he was a barrister, believe me he is very astute and it will be very difficult for anyone
to pull the wool over his eyes.
Very recently I had some dealings with the Department now under question and I found there to be a great
level of arrogance amongst those I dealt with.

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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:54 pm

Sinead wrote:.I believe Mr. Charleton should be allowed get on with the job entrusted to him. In the early 1980's I worked
with this man when he was a barrister, believe me he is very astute and it will be very difficult for anyone
to pull the wool over his eyes.
Sinéad


He will need to be, because I would imagine that the terms of reference include confidentiality clauses plus clear directives as to what can be looked at and what route the investigation will take ..... when you make the rules for an enquiry, its not that hard to protect your interests.

About 20 yrs ago,I was involved in a review of a state agencys project and the final report was edited nine times before all the vested interests were satisfied and it was finally released (2yrs later btw). Finding out the truth is one thing, but being able to talk about it is a totally different world (especially when words like commercial sensitivities are used). My best wishes to Mr Charleton, but I expect he will already have had his cards marked in a subtle way and we will be fed a very well edited results which will include some truths and a fair amount of diversions.

“The Charleton Liaison Committee is a unit that works for An Garda Síochána in managing documentation supply and other matters with the Charleton Tribunal. It is funded by the taxpayer. It has had significant resources attached to it; two full-time retired senior members of the force and one officer seconded, a solicitor as well as a number of other full time personnel and regional liaison personnel.”

Nothing is ever what it seems in Government circles .... 'Yes Minister' exists.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:07 pm

Again for clarity the link to the Enquiry. Witnesses will be examined and questioned with transcripts available to scrutinise.

http://www.disclosuretribunal.ie

http://www.disclosuretribunal.ie/en/dis ... blications

As a Supreme Court judge, Mr Charleton will be an efficient, experienced and thorough investigator and arbiter.He will encounter obtuse persons but he will be experienced enough to deal with them. The question is whether the documents he needs to assess for addition to compile a report, will be covered by certain types of legal privilege, which unfortunately may limit the access to procure them for publication. This could lead to actions such that happened with the Morris Tribunal regarding the Planning issues a decade ago. Therefore Mr Charleton must proceed with caution and skill to eviscerate all relevant issues.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Strum » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:44 pm

So are we now signed into the EU Army, behind closed doors? It was written in the Lisbon Treaty, EU Army by November 2017 if I remember correctly?
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:58 pm

As members of the EU look what else we are potentially part of.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 012A%2FTXT

Is our real neutrality the ability to appear neutral and be adept at diplomacy?
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:21 am

gingertom wrote:As members of the EU look what else we are potentially part of.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 012A%2FTXT

Is our real neutrality the ability to appear neutral and be adept at diplomacy?



Thats way beyond my reading capacity GT (welcome back btw), but then again.. thats probably not an accident as people get paid huge sums of money to write such wordy documents..... any chance you could just give us a laymans version about a paragraph long ?

Personally I have no issue with us being part of a European army as we have already sold our country off bit by bit .... we are a modern multi-cultural society with every race and creed mixed into our ever dwindling Irish identity. Big business dictates war these days and we are fooling ourselves if we think neutrality will keep us safe..... one bomb at the likes of Sellafield and its goodnight Irene for mosts of us.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:05 pm

PREAMBLE (of the treaty)

HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC, HER ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUCHESS OF LUXEMBOURG, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS (1),

RECOGNISING that nuclear energy represents an essential resource for the development and invig­ oration of industry and will permit the advancement of the cause of peace,

CONVINCED that only a joint effort undertaken without delay can offer the prospect of achievements commensurate with the creative capacities of their countries,

RESOLVED to create the conditions necessary for the development of a powerful nuclear industry which will provide extensive energy resources, lead to the modernisation of technical processes and contribute, through its many other applications, to the prosperity of their peoples,

ANXIOUS to create the conditions of safety necessary to eliminate hazards to the life and health of the public,

DESIRING to associate other countries with their work and to cooperate with international organi­ sations concerned with the peaceful development of atomic energy,

HAVE DECIDED to create a EUROPEAN ATOMIC ENERGY COMMUNITY (EURATOM) and to this end have designated as their Plenipotentiaries:

(List of plenipotentiaries not reproduced)

WHO, having exchanged their full powers, found in good and due form, have agreed as follows:

(1) The Republic of Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, the Kingdom of Denmark, the Republic of Estonia, Ireland, the Hellenic Republic, the Kingdom of Spain, the Republic of Cyprus, the Republic of Latvia, the Republic of Lithuania, the Republic of Hungary, the Republic of Malta, the Republic of Austria, the Republic of Poland, the Portuguese Republic, Romania, the Republic of Slovenia, the Slovak Republic, the Republic of Finland, the Kingdom of Sweden and United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland have since become members of the European Atomic Energy Community.

My own opinion. Does not constitute legal advice.
Ireland could be made to take part in the funding and development of Nuclear power for domestic uses in place of oil under this treaty. I do believe that we have a veto within this framework but Ireland is really not a neutral country when we look at politics today, as political discourse issues are global and affect all together internationally.
Now that diesel and petrol are viewed as environmental enemies to our world, could the EU turn to promote Nuclear Energy production for energy security issues. If Russia turns off the natural gas tap or massively increases prices what would happen?


http://www.world-nuclear.org/informatio ... union.aspx

Note:
The EU is the largest energy importer in the world, importing 53% of its energy, at an annual cost of around €400 billion.

In the same way if there is a world war or significant conflict affecting our EU partners, and as a result we may be affected economically any way.

http://www.thejournal.ie/sellafield-bre ... 9-Apr2017/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 12381.html

https://www.ft.com/content/fe3b50a4-e3e ... 5580d6e5fb

https://www.fiannafail.ie/irish-interes ... om-dooley/

I'am not supporting Fianna Fáil. Just for illustrative purposes.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/informatio ... union.aspx

Remember, the EU is the largest energy importer in the world, importing 53% of its energy, at an annual cost of around €400 billion.
I think within the Brexit debate the issue of Nuclear safety has been missing thus far. Remember how close Sellafield is to us and the safety and pollution concerns Ireland should be aware of.The Euratom oversight and ability to complain to the EU Court in Strasbourg could become extremely diluted as a result of Brexit.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:09 pm

Thanks GT, it certainly looks like Euratom has been conviently ignored by some and as I hinted at, Sellafield is a huge problem for us.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:18 pm

I think that as part of the EU we are stuck with certain obligations and consequent fiscal responsibilities to upkeep EU institutions.Included in which is an EU military force. Hopefully the day won't come when we need it for defence but it does provide training and the upkeep of technology and maintenance of good relationships Union wide. We are realistically stuck with being a member of the EU and given the political, financial and pure purveyance of myth and codology in the UK both before and after the triggering of Article 50, would we really want it here too?! With the political weight we have now within the EU, now is the time to do side deals to further our own domestic position........
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:53 pm

Imagine getting a €500 voucher for Dunnes from your employer for Christmas ...... yes thats FIVE HUNDRED EURO !!!

https://extra.ie/business/irish/irish-rail-strike-e500-dunnes-vouchers

I was lucky if I got a christmas card BangHead
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Rocker » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:22 pm

Gosh I heard all that moaning about the ~Dunnes voucher. God we would be delighted with a 10 Euro voucher. When I was working one day I said to the boss "we get no thanks for doing a great job here"...do you know what he said..."your thanks is in your weekly pay packet"!!. We never got a Christmas gift, or a bonus, or even an extra day off and especially not a verbal "thank you". Just bled us for every ounce of energy.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Sinead » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:39 pm

There's nought as strange as folks, there is no pleasing them.
If they got Brown Thomas Vouchers they would be moaning over
the prices in the shop.

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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:42 pm

The big issue here is the FACT that its €500 X 3806 employees thats a €1,903,000 hand out....... are Irish Rail in profit or are they pleading poverty as they close stations / routes in rural Ireland and isolate people.

This is from Irish Rails 2016 Annual Report :

In 2016, our team of approx. 3,806 people continued to deliver safe, quality transport services to our customers through a difficult economic period.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/iarnrod-eireann-annual-report-2016.pdf

Thats a real issue, but the real problem is NO one is asking the Government what is the total christmas bonus cost to the taxpayer across all state agencies etc ?
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Micheál » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:01 pm

Toss wrote:The big issue here is the FACT that its €500 X 3806 employees thats a €1,903,000 hand out....... are Irish Rail in profit or are they pleading poverty as they close stations / routes in rural Ireland and isolate people.

This is from Irish Rails 2016 Annual Report :

In 2016, our team of approx. 3,806 people continued to deliver safe, quality transport services to our customers through a difficult economic period.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/iarnrod-eireann-annual-report-2016.pdf

Thats a real issue, but the real problem is NO one is asking the Government what is the total christmas bonus cost to the taxpayer across all state agencies etc ?


Ahem, Toss

Two things here

€500 vouchers is worth far more in terms of earnings before tax. So the real value of this to recipients, depending on marginal rate of tax, is much more valuable. Did everyone achieve this benefit? Or was it performance related?

Where's the Company Pension deficit in all these figures?

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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:32 pm

Micheál wrote:
Ahem, Toss

Two things here

€500 vouchers is worth far more in terms of earnings before tax. So the real value of this to recipients, depending on marginal rate of tax, is much more valuable. Did everyone achieve this benefit? Or was it performance related?

Where's the Company Pension deficit in all these figures?

M.


Very true Michael .... tax avoidance takes many forms and its interesting how selective certain politicians hearing can be when they are being questioned. I suppose the tax payer will probabaly be called upon to bail out the pension deficit.


Almost two Million euro handed to Dunnes Stores ..... a sweetheart deal if ever I seen one, so what would you do to keep a customer who spends that much from switching supplier next year ? :twisted: :roll:
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:37 pm

Micheál wrote:
Toss wrote:The big issue here is the FACT that its €500 X 3806 employees thats a €1,903,000 hand out....... are Irish Rail in profit or are they pleading poverty as they close stations / routes in rural Ireland and isolate people.

This is from Irish Rails 2016 Annual Report :

In 2016, our team of approx. 3,806 people continued to deliver safe, quality transport services to our customers through a difficult economic period.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/iarnrod-eireann-annual-report-2016.pdf

Thats a real issue, but the real problem is NO one is asking the Government what is the total christmas bonus cost to the taxpayer across all state agencies etc ?


Ahem, Toss

Two things here

€500 vouchers is worth far more in terms of earnings before tax. So the real value of this to recipients, depending on marginal rate of tax, is much more valuable. Did everyone achieve this benefit? Or was it performance related?

Where's the Company Pension deficit in all these figures?

M.


Might I refer to the below link.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-peo ... efits.aspx

I think that clears up the matter in terms of tax.It appears that the once off payment does not attract tax according to the Revenue.The above contention is factually incorrect by Micheál. It also clearly states that the small benefit cannot be made in cash either. The matter of the choice of provider of voucher is another matter significantly less important than whether they deserve it at all.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Micheál » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:11 pm

gingertom wrote:
Micheál wrote:
Toss wrote:The big issue here is the FACT that its €500 X 3806 employees thats a €1,903,000 hand out....... are Irish Rail in profit or are they pleading poverty as they close stations / routes in rural Ireland and isolate people.

This is from Irish Rails 2016 Annual Report :

In 2016, our team of approx. 3,806 people continued to deliver safe, quality transport services to our customers through a difficult economic period.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/iarnrod-eireann-annual-report-2016.pdf

Thats a real issue, but the real problem is NO one is asking the Government what is the total christmas bonus cost to the taxpayer across all state agencies etc ?


Ahem, Toss

Two things here

€500 vouchers is worth far more in terms of earnings before tax. So the real value of this to recipients, depending on marginal rate of tax, is much more valuable. Did everyone achieve this benefit? Or was it performance related?

Where's the Company Pension deficit in all these figures?

M.


Might I refer to the below link.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-peo ... efits.aspx

I think that clears up the matter in terms of tax.It appears that the once off payment does not attract tax according to the Revenue.The above contention is factually incorrect by Micheál. It also clearly states that the small benefit cannot be made in cash either. The matter of the choice of provider of voucher is another matter significantly less important than whether they deserve it at all.


What contention was that Gingertom?

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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:23 pm

Its quite clear when one reads the Revenue information on the link I have provided as to how it relates to what you contended. Please read it and consider your statement.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Micheál » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:04 am

Gingertom,

I think I made several "statements/contentions" but I'm still unsure which one you think was "incorrect", and how.

That revenue page does not deal with the state of C.I.E. Pension deficits.
Nor does seem to be at odds with my "contention" that money in hand that's tax free is more valuable to the recipient than its face value when one considers the gross sum that would need to be earned to achieve the same net result. And rEcall I was also reacting to another members surprise that the €500 was so generous.

Plus, I wondered whether this bonus was awarded to everyone regardless of individual performance

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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:37 am

Micheál wrote:Gingertom,

I think I made several "statements/contentions" but I'm still unsure which one you think was "incorrect", and how.

That revenue page does not deal with the state of C.I.E. Pension deficits.
Nor does seem to be at odds with my "contention" that money in hand that's tax free is more valuable to the recipient than its face value when one considers the gross sum that would need to be earned to achieve the same net result. And rEcall I was also reacting to another members surprise that the €500 was so generous.

Plus, I wondered whether this bonus was awarded to everyone regardless of individual performance

M.


Read the page and see that vouchers granted up to €500 attract no tax.So correlation to your to your contention is unattainable.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Rocker » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:30 am

Bit nit picky for me!!

As far as I can see the 500 voucher is a sweetner and everyone in Irish Rail regardless of grade or performance will get it.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby gingertom » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:58 am

Rocker wrote:Bit nit picky for me!!

As far as I can see the 500 voucher is a sweetner and everyone in Irish Rail regardless of grade or performance will get it.


Of course it is a inducement to agree to the collective agreement. Such is the nature of negotiation and acceptance and that applies to my non reliant legal reasoning to dismiss the contention supplied by Micheál, who ignored the fact that it is permissible to receive €500 without liability to tax.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Toss » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:35 pm

I see the Kerry baby tragedy is back in the news and Joanne Hayes has to relive her nightmare. Its a disgrace that its taken this long to apologise and set the records straight, but what really annoys me is the reporting in the media. The message they are spinning is that this was back in the old days and dark times ..... and it would NEVER happen today.

I wonder what Gerry McCabe thinks ? his treatment shows how politicians have short memories "Mr Varadkar said he had only recently learned the full facts of the Kerry Babies case, as he was very young at the time, and that it had been an “eye opening” experience.... “It reflects the extent to which Ireland was such a different place in the 1980s than it is now,” .

Different place my arse, Gerry Mc Cabe's case was not 30 years ago and we still have people getting wrongly accused and witchhunted.... quick get the brush and lift the carpet.
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Re: Water and other political issues.

Postby Sinead » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:04 pm

Toss, what happened to Ms. Hayes in the 1980's was appalling, there are no words to describe it. The judge in the
tribunal should have been struck off for his unfounded accusations. The Gardai who assaulted Ms. Hayes should
have been sacked.
But, it was a very different Ireland, this is bourn out by the fact that 99% of those involved in all of this were male. The
Hayes family were taken advantage of and bullied unmercifully.
Does it still happen, yes or at least there is an attempt to repeat it in the case of Sgt. McCabe. The difference in these
cases is that Sgt. McCabe ensured he had 'back-up'.
The Hayes tribunal was the first time I recall Mná na hEireann rising up for long and many a day.

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