Monkstown: A Victorian Village

The area, its locals past and present, memories, stories etc

Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Gulliver » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:37 pm

Micheál
Thanks for comment about the book. I well remember at confirmation the bishop (Kyne of Meath) shouting down at me to "Speak up, boy".

In regard to the question of carving of angels on a block in situ, possibly 40ft up - I wonder.

As I read your suggestion, it is that the angels in question were cast probably at the time the church was built, then covered over for 40 years and possibly much more, before removing the covers to reveal the heads - I think that is a most unlikely explanation, but I will pass it on to one of my experts on church buildings.

Having said that, I agree with you that it would be extremely difficult to carve these at the top of a ladder.

Looking at enlargements of the old pics, the blocks look like stone with a slightly rough surface, but I could be wrong. The completed angels look smooth and are white.
I'll try to post pics so that others might see what we are talking about - firstly one of the uncarved blocks as photographed in approx 1920
Image

Now the carved angel as photographed 2016 - they have been like this for as long as anyone remembers
There are about 10 or 12 in this pattern - could they have been carved in situ - if not what is the explanation?

Image
Last edited by Gulliver on Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Micheál » Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:32 pm

My "mould" hypothesis is turning, well, mouldy.

If moulds were deployed, you'd expect that there would be some repetition in the features. (Why would a unique mould be used for each and every "sculpted" point?).

But a site visit today revealed
1. there is widespread variation in the features.
2. The dimensions of features seem just about contained by the 'blocks" in the original pictures - meaning that prefabricated masks were not imposed on those blocks

I've taken pics and will demonstrate later.

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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Micheál » Sun Aug 07, 2016 12:49 pm

Aaaah! would ya look at de little angels . . . . and not one of them a bit like their father

collage3.jpg
collage3.jpg (245.63 KiB) Viewed 2009 times


So my "Mould" theory can burn in hell. But the detail and surface (even after painting) doesnt suggest stone. I'm now speculating that these are plaster carvings on some sort - prepared, as Gulliver says, in situ.

Heres a lcoser look . . .
https://flic.kr/s/aHskFWEyCH

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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Rocker » Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:51 pm

Thanks Micheál these photos show just how gorgeous the little angels are.They look like some kind of plaster to me too. HID's idea is that the original blocks were temporary and were taken down when the little angels were cast and placed in situ. ....Ha ha the hours we will spend looking at the church....they could start a business selling sandwiches and tea/coffees to the gawkers. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Micheál » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:58 pm

I'm thinking Rocker's HID might be right . .

e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-PAIR-OF-CHERUB-PLASTER-CORBELS-READY-TO-HANG-ON-A-BUY-IT-NOW-/152180625810

Maybe the church builders couldn't decide what exactly to place there, or maybe there was a delay with the supplier, so they simply left temorary 'blocks' to illustrate the final dimensions of the decor.

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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Gulliver » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:30 am

Reminds me of a movie from many years ago
Image
Last edited by Gulliver on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Gulliver » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:15 pm

The dirty faces on the church angels arise from the fact that some of them are placed above the gas burners which provide the heating in the church

Micheál - the flickr photos are really good - it looks like two of the angels have been banished to the bold corner.
There's a dopey angel, a couple of sleepy angels, and quite a few "couldn't care less" angels
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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Micheál » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:04 am

Incidentally, those angel figures are technically known as "corbels" - an architectural term to describe a structure that juts out from a facade to bear the load of (or just decorate) a structure above it e.g an archway, a roof bearing plate etc

Here's my favourite example in all of the borough. These Corbels even have their own Corbels. wuu

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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Rocker » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:50 am

Never knew that term Thanks Micheál. I learn something everyday on this site.

I wonder if there is a hidden story about the angel corbels. Maybe the masons or plaster workers fashioned them after their children as they were born.

The next book will have to be the Mysterious corbels of Monkstown. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Gulliver » Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:28 pm

It's not just Corbels - these things below were also given similar treatment as shown in the before (c1920) and modern pics.
For Micheál's benefit, they are called cusps, even though they are different from cusps as I would understand the term.
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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Micheál » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:23 pm

Aha - I had a look at the cusps too and couldn't detect any similarities among them either. This wasn't entirely a surprise as I often gazed on these during long sermons back in the day and had already noticed their uniqueness.
I just couldn't report this previously because I hadn't a name for them.

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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Gulliver » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:28 pm

Micheál
I referred the essentials of this discussion and the various suggestions to G. Hyland, author of the Chronological Gazetteer of the works of E.W. Pugin (and numerous other books and articles about Pugin Churches). His response was as follows "From my experience with what happened vis a vis carving in other EWP churches, I would say that the angels were most likely carved in situ, from very high ladders or scaffold, as you suggest."
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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Micheál » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:11 pm

Can't dispute authority like that. Thanks Gulliver.

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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Rocker » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:21 pm

Micheál wrote:Can't dispute authority like that. Thanks Gulliver.

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Thanks Gulliver :D so much for our theories :D :D
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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Strum » Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:15 pm

Very interesting posts folks. Excuse my ignorance but if they were carved in situ they wouldn't be plaster would they, so what stone are they generally made from?
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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Gulliver » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:01 pm

I think we're agreed they are stone not plaster - but they have been painted white so we cannot see what's underneath.
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Re: Monkstown: A Victorian Village

Postby Rocker » Tue May 01, 2018 5:18 pm

I'm posting this here as well as in events.

Monkstown Church of Ireland

A series of May Organ Recitals will take place in Monkstown Church of Ireland Parish Church, Monkstown, Co Dublin on 1, 8, 15 and 22 May at 1:00pm.
Your support would be most welcome and any publicity you can give us would be very much appreciated.
Free admission, basket at door for donations to church funds.
Tuesday 1 May – Raymond Russell (Monkstown)
Tuesday 8 May – Ronan Murray (Glasthule)
Tuesday 15 May – Caroline Richards (Christ Church Cathedral)
Tuesday 22 May – David Connolly (Dun Laoghaire)
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